|
50
Clips
Nov 28, 2008
Summary
Comments (115)
Nov 28, 2008
First off, smoking is not the #1 preventable cause of death in this country, heart disease caused by obesity is. Second, whether or not he smokes is a personal decision, just as he (and in turn the government) should not be able to tell an individual citizen they cannot smoke, we should not be able to tell him not to.
Nov 28, 2008
I used to smoke - 30-40 a day. I quit. I admire anyone that wants to, and can. It's not easy. Anyone that wants to quit and needs support should get it. However, if you want to continue smoking, then it's your choice too. Freedom of choice. Don't tell me how to live my life; I don't tell you how to live yours unless you're infringing on my rights. Go and find something positive to do with your life, and leave others to make their own choices.
Nov 28, 2008
@eyebee I smoke, I like smoking, I will quit smoking when I want to do so, like you did. I applaud those who quit, because it takes commitment and it means they're doing what they want to do, not what people feel they should. President Obama can bum a smoke off of me anytime (unless he is actually trying to quit, then he's cut off 'til he buys his own pack).
Nov 28, 2008
So, in the spirit of this article, should we cut off people from eating McDonald's before they become obese and get heart disease, type 2 diabetes or rising blood-pressure? Shouldn't we also be cutting off alcohol supplies before people become alcoholics or develop cirrhosis of the liver? Perhaps we should all just live in little bubbles where nothing can harm us.
Nov 28, 2008
I have a pretty much libertarian view on life. Let's all do whatever we darn well please, as long as we don't infringe on the freedoms of others. I'll accept non-smoking in public places (in fact, to be honest as an ex-smoker, I prefer non-smoking venues), but let each business decide, not the Government. You then choose, as a smoker or non-smoker whether to patronize a place.
Nov 28, 2008
Honestly, as a smoker I have no problem with non-smoking restaurants, just as I have no problem with non-smoking grocery stores, office buildings, etc... I have a problem with the government (at least here in Iowa) to force all businesses with employees to disallow smoking in their establishments. It should be a the decision of the business, not the government.
Nov 28, 2008
@greghollingsworth It sounds like you understand the nature of addiction. People quit when there ready to quit,no sooner. I know he's a role model, but I don't want a President that does everything based on what is the most popular thing to do at the moment. This is a little off topic, but I like the fact that he inhaled, and I don't mean tobacco. He's actually an advocate for decriminalization, but I'm not sure what his stance is on legalization. BTW, You never hear about a politician's drinking becoming an issue, unless it is becoming a problem, and then it is understandable. Hope he rolls up a fat one in the Oval office, I'm sure Bush has!
Nov 28, 2008
@michaelfidler @greghollingsworth @caermon @eyebee As someone who has from time to time in my past enjoyed a cig and then put it far behind me, I believe that it is irresponsible for the President of the United States to smoke. It sends a horrible message to our kids that it is ok when it is not.
Nov 28, 2008
@michaelfidler good lord I hope they legalize, imagine the tax revenue from marijuana alone, talk about balancing the budget, oh and the significant reduction in costs associated with the drug war and prison systems.
Presidents should not be role models, anymore than athletes or movie stars should be. I certainly wouldn't want my children wanting to emulate most, if not all of them (Teddy Roosevelt would be okay I guess). Either way, the man exiting the presidency reportedly used cocaine, marijuana and is a recovering alcoholic, and he served 8 years. Yet we're now focused on the fact that Obama has a ciggy every once in a while? Jesus, are we ever misguided as a society.
Nov 28, 2008
@jasongoldberg why isn't it okay to smoke? Is it anymore okay to consume alcohol? What about caffeine? They are all drugs that can have potentially negative effects on our bodies. Hell, enough tylenol will cause liver damage, too much ibuprofen can give you ulcers.
This is an issue based wholly on the judgmental nature of our society. Smoking is the cause-celebre of the anti- crowd right now.
Nov 28, 2008
@sithiche @greghollingsworth It sends a horrible message to our kids that smoking is ok, when it's not. Smoking kills.
Nov 28, 2008
@sithiche I agree completely, but unfortunately in the culture of celebrity that we have, every activity of anyone in the public eye is over-analyzed and over-emphasized.
Nov 28, 2008
@Jasongoldberg Then ban it, outlaw it. Drinking alcohol kills. Overeating kills. Until it's illegal, it shouldn't even be an issue.
Nov 28, 2008
@jasongoldberg Life kills, death is the inevitable conclusion of life. And lots of things that we do everyday can kill you. Flying can kill, driving can kill, falling down the stairs can kill, undercooked chicken can kill. Just one more piece of the culture of fear.
Nov 28, 2008
@greghollingsworth
That's true. And people should pay more attention to improving their own lives instead of criticising others.
Nov 28, 2008
@jasongoldberg I appreciate your concern for our kids, but a smoking President is a much better role model than the over-sexed, drugged out, alcoholic, solipsistic role models they're fed by Hollywood and sports.
Nov 28, 2008
@greghollingsworth
And a hundred times better than a moronic president, to be sure. Your country has had far too much of that lately.
Nov 28, 2008
@greghollingsworth It's funny that you brought up balancing the budget through legalization, because I added that same comment on the end of the last post,but deleted it before posting. I felt I was already straying off the topic, not that I haven't done that before. It's the #1 Cash Crop in every single state in the country. The tax from it would completely eliminate the debt, while reducing most other taxes. I've always said "if you don't change your direction, you'll end up where your heading". Maybe things will get so bad, it will be legalized out of sheer desperation. In doing so, the country will come to realize that it's not a gateway drug, and has a plethora of other benefit's. BTW the biggest lobbyist against legalizing it, are the Pharmaceutical Industry, and the Forestry Industry. If the country was just allowed to grow Hemp,(which has little to no THC), we would never have to cut down another tree for paper! I'm not going to go on ,but I could. I can't believe Jason smoked, he seems so innocent! Just kidding,Jason. Wasn't Hillary doing shots during the campaign? I think that's a poor example for kids also. I don;t thing she should change her behavior because of it.
Nov 28, 2008
@michaelfidler @jasongoldberg I am not implying that as President, Barack Obama should be having a cigarette during national addresses or while on official business, but if we wants to have a smoke on the balcony at night (or a cigar, as I'm sure many "non-smoking" presidents do) I don't see why it needs to be anyone's business bu this own.
Nov 28, 2008
@jasongoldberg I read the other posts, so here I go... I'll try to be suscinct. All the president needs to do to be a better role model then most of our recent Presidents, is obey the law, be loyal to his Wife,not bug the Republican National Headquarters, and do a great job! Greg's right about Alcohol, Tylenol, and caffeine. Aside, from the social problems Alcohol creates(Domestic Violence, broken homes, etc) do you know how many people die in Alcohol related accident every single year? I don't have the exact figure, gut its around the number of soldier's that died in the Viet Nam War. The entire war, not just one year! Big problem. If he wants to be a role model, maybe he should demonstrate it by legalizing all vice's. I think that would be a profound message that might just influence children to become more tolerant of people with different lifestyles. That's an extreme example, but it's a lesson that might help more people relate to the rest of the world. Something needs to change, and it's not the President smoking!
Nov 28, 2008
@greghollingsworth I agree, it should only take place in the privacy of one's home. In that way it shows respect for others.
Nov 28, 2008
I think it's largely a non-issue. If the President smokes, and I had to justify that to kids, I would simply say that in many peoples opinion smoking is bad for you, and that I think it unwise for anyone, including the president, to smoke, but one of the foundations of a free society is having personal freedoms, and the right to choose to do to yourself what you see fit as long as you don't force it upon others.
As for the 'Hollywood Role Model' that Greg raised, it's a shame that more people seem to be more interested in female singers sex lives that what is going on in thes rest of the world.
Nov 28, 2008
@michaelfiidler I don't know if I would go quite that far, but we should all be respectful to others regardless of the vice. I don't smoke in my house for many reasons, nor in others cars (unless they say I can), I ask people riding in my car (where I smoke) if they mind, I do not smoke around children, etc...
In my opinion if people are allowed to drink in public places (and often turn themselves into public nuisances) my smoking in a park, city street, etc... shouldn't be an issue. As long as I'm not blowing smoke in people's faces, hell, car exhaust is significantly more deadly than cigarette smoke.
Nov 28, 2008
@greghollingsworth That was a very extreme example to make a point, and not a idea I support. I could have gone the other way and suggested making everything illegal as you mentioned earlier. You use a very practical, and considerate approach towards your public smoking.
As a final thought, I wonder if I would feel different about all of this if I had kids?
Nov 29, 2008
@michaelfidler
Well, I do have kids, and I do smoke, and like Greg, never around them, and never in my house. But I support the freedom to practice a legal activity. My kids also have the freedom to lecture me on the associated health risks. I don't like them going on at me, but it's their right to do so. My opinion on this wouldn't be any different if I were childless and a non smoker. 
Nov 29, 2008
I don't want the guy smoking. He's a role model for millions now, including my two kids. The Media will snap pictures of him smoking
Nov 29, 2008
@joebachana would you want your children to immediately disregard anyone's accomplishments based on a single bad habit? No one is perfect.
All great men have faults (and no, I am not implying that Pres. Elect Obama is a great man, in that I simply cannot make that estimation at this point). John F. Kennedy was a womanizing alcoholic, Franklin Roosevelt an adulterer as well as smoker. John McCain had an affair with his current wife while he was still married to his first wife. Find me a great man and I can guarantee you he has done something that some would not approve of. The point is that as President, Barack Obama is the living representation (at least for the next four years) of the ideals this country was founded upon,and the freedom to choose what we do and do not do is chief among those ideals. Smoking, while at present a very unpopular habit, is not illegal, and is far from being the worst thing a person can do. Additionally, it is not the responsibility of any individual to abide by the standards of others. If you don't want your children to smoke, teach them why smoking is a bad thing to do. Besides, if you think that seeing the president smoke would convince kids it's cool to smoke, you're way off base. Kids start smoking because it is rebellious,, that's why I did, and I think that's probably why most people do. Regardless, the President is perfectly within his rights to smoke, if you don't like it, then don't vote for him in 4 years, or, perhaps those of you who did vote for him should have paid a little closer attention to the person you were voting for. Or, did you put more stock into his virtues than his vices, for our sakes, I hope so.
Nov 29, 2008
@joebachana Lets just see what he chooses to do. I'm sure he's aware of his new role. At the same time he's quit smoking at least once before. Most smokers will relapse on average of six times before quitting for good. It's his decision to make. 6,000 kids start smoking every day in the US, with or without Obama. Today, researchers, coincidentally, discovered two gene's that predispose kids to smoke. Some starting in elementary school. These genes are present in about 1/8 of all smokers. Those with them have been found to never be able to quit smoking! During the Clinton administration, there was a big movement to stop marketing cigarettes to children. Remember the ban on the Joe Camel Ads, Clinton supported it. But, behind the scenes, Clinton went to China several times on the behalf of Philip Morris to promote US tobacco over there. We traded the heath of our kids for theirs. Marlboro cigarettes are so popular in Asia it's ridiculous. Marlboro and Johnny Walker Black Label Scotch. Kinda twisted, don't you think?
Nov 29, 2008
@joebachana I apologize for going of on a bit of a rant there, I can certainly understand your point of view as well. I do not want my kids to grow up and become smokers, and honestly I hope that I can teach my boys not to make decisions based on what is or isn't cool at a given point in time (which was sure as hell what got me to light up that first smoke a decade ago).
Nov 29, 2008
i think it's safe to say a lot of the people that voted for Obama are pro-choice.... so why can't the president choose to smoke or not? Where do you draw the line? Should he quit McDonalds too? What about riding in a SUV, those are more dangerous too.... what about parabeans in his aftershave? Oh, and don't forget aspartame in his Diet Coke....Don't get me wrong, smoking is a dumb, dumb choice, but it is his right to choose...
Nov 29, 2008
I can't believe this "issue" has generated so much commentary, or that @jasongoldberg spouted such tiresome anti-smoking boilerplate, but anyway. I think it's a relief that Obama smokes, if he does. I mean, come on, the guy comes off as a little too perfect sometimes. I also think it would be HIlarious if he smoked Kools. Like I do, by the way. But knowing him, whatever brand he prefers, he's keeping it out of the public eye for the same reasons that everyone here is objecting to smoking. I think he's a very self-aware guy. But smoking is a private vice, leave him to it.
Nov 29, 2008
@jeffdoug I agree. He'll make his own choice and if he chooses to make his decisions public that is again his choice. I'm sure he'll keep it out of the public eye as much as possible (even though I personally don't think he should hide it).
Nov 29, 2008
I should add, because I usually do, that I find distasteful the whiff of moral supremacy that surrounds much anti-smoking preachments. You won't usually smell that when people talk about alcohol or over-eating. Well, unless you live in a gay ghetto where going to the gym is like going to church. Let's get one thing straight: OK, smoking is bad for you. But it's not _bad_ for you.
Nov 29, 2008
I believe we are looking at two different issues here
1) Smoking in itself being dangerous 2) Picture or News of anyone smoking influencing us to smoke. Now smoking is bad, but these days what isn't? Eating a lot of rich food can give you a heart attack. Caffeine gives arrhythmias. So is the only reason we are so adamant to stop smokers is because it leads to cancer? But that doesn't really constitute moral justification does it? We are just saying one disease is more deadly than the other so stop smoking. So should Obama stop smoking, well he is a responsible adult and he knows all the risks here. I believe it should be his decision. Thus said, should President Obama stop smoking? I agree with @greghollingsworth. I believe he shouldn't smoke in public or be caught on the cameras or even a passing news by CNN and Fox. That will influence the kids who are still unsure which way to go. Did you know as per a survey, almost 80%(not sure if this is the correct figure) of the kids below 18 started smoking by looking at the Marlboro Man? We sure don't want Obama to be the next Marlboro do we?
Nov 29, 2008
@jeffdoug Aspartame is bad for me. But, I just read a study, by Crystal Light Labs, that said it was good for people. Sugar's bad also, This sucks. I suppose fruit juice sans sugar is going to be next!
Nov 29, 2008
Thing is, we get information about a product, and then make a decision ourselves, whether to consume it or not. Sometimes, even though we know something is bad for us, we choose to put that to the back of our mind, and do it anyway, or we try to justify our consumption (my daddy smoked 60 a day from the age of ten and he died at 96; I only eat 3 doughnuts for breakfast these days, instead of ten).
Personally, with food, I feel that natural or naturally derived products are better for you than chemical substitutes. However, that's a whole new topic of conversation!
Nov 29, 2008
Obama is the first president in a long time that is really popular with the youth in our country. Too many people(any age) he is going to be a strong role model. Smoking out of site is the best thing for him to do, should he choose to smoke, although as Greg said, he shouldn't have too. It's refreshing that we have a President who is so promising, that we worry about him smoking in public.
I don't think the Marlboro man is the main reason kids start smoking. It seems to be a combination of rebellion, peer pressure, rolemodels, and now genetics.
Nov 29, 2008
Let's not forget that some of us actually enjoy smoking. That's the reason I still smoke. It also helps me write, as does beer. I seem to recall reading somewhere how smoking helped some nice old lady get through the blitz. It's clear by now that smoking ages you; so does being President of the United States. He needs all the help he can get, I would think.
Nov 29, 2008
First off, I find it hard to believe that Cigarette marketing (if you can actually find any) is anywhere near as efffective as it once was. As someone who works in marketing, there is a growing consensus that traditional marketing figures like the Marlboro Man and Joe Camel (who hasn't been used in a very long time) do not appeal to the younger demographic. We are past the point where being rough and rugged is enough to convince someone to smoke.
I started smoking at 16, and it had nothing to do with advertising, or role models, or anyone outside of my peer group. I started smoking because it was rebellious and it was cool to smoke in high school. Of course they were stupid reasons, but they were the ones that made me a smoker. That said, I can't say that I regret my decision, as regret will not get anyone anywhere. President Obama is a role model, that is certain, but that doesn't mean that it is his responsibility to teach our children what is wrong and or right. I find it disturbing when we as parents look outside of our own sphere of influence to find things to blame for the actions our kids take. The government (and our representatives in it) should not be responsible for teaching our children right from wrong, it is our responsibility as parents to teach our children how to be good citizens, how to treat others with respect and most importantly to treat others well (regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, etc...) Personally, I do not really care if President Obama is a smoker, it doesn't effect my life (nor the life of my kids) any more than any other celebrity who smokes. My job as a parent is to teach my children to make good decisions, but more importantly to make the right decisions for themselves.
Nov 29, 2008
@greghollingsworth So I guess the question here would be, what is the biggest influence on kids to start smoking these days. I know being cool is definitely on the list...atleast that's why I started at 16...but quit because I hate that smokey taste in my mouth.
Agreed that it is really upto parents to teach the children between right and wrong...but even with the best upbringing, don't most teenagers have a habit of doing something horribly crazy...need not necessarily be bad, but crazy? Thinking on these lines, perhaps Obama's smoking really would have no effect on most of the kids...but since children are so impressionable would we really want to take a chance of kids, no matter how small a percentage, saying I smoke because I saw my President smoking?
Nov 30, 2008
Oh, please...more "OMG what about the CHILDREN!!!?!?!? WE HAVE TO PROTECT THEMZ!!!!" bull. People have turned children into this little fetish to trot out when it suits their purposes. Children are important, but not the most important people in society, and legislating people's freedoms to live their own lives and make their own choices because of how it might "influence the children" is a load of crap. Humans are adults far longer than they are children. Adults pay the bills, do the work, and make the rules, and most adults spend the majority of their time, energy, and money taking care of children. I think the children have it just FINE barring actual abuse and we need to start worrying about how the adults have it. If you need to reform a social behavior about how we treat children, how about stop systematically lying to them about things like Santa Claus for the first few years of their lives? Oh, but it's so CUTE that we can just tell kids anything and have them believe it (and it sells lots more toys when parents can't just explain they can't afford it, right?), and after all, who cares about lying to children when it can't help push a social agenda we're in favor of, right? /sickened
Nov 30, 2008
@The Puck What you've just described, facetiously, doesn't apply to the most of the world. It's only in countries dominated by Christianists. Adults are in charge in the rest of the world, and most don't sweat so much if a teenager smokes a fag, literally or figuratively, or sees a naked tit or a pair of bollocks or whatever. Only in America. And, oh yeah, the 51st state, Britain. All that is reason #524 why I don't live there, or anywhere like it, anymore.
Nov 30, 2008
@homosuperior Then whether the president smokes isn't really your issue, lol. I get your point, but this was pretty much an American article about an American issue.
Nov 30, 2008
I'm an American. An American exile. And I'm reminded why by some of the attitudes in this thread.
Nov 30, 2008
Katie Mowery 6th period
I think that we(or his advisers) should encourage him to stop. He's not an idiot, so he MUST know what smoking does. So he's probably tried to stop, but had a hard time.
Dec 01, 2008
Carly Roberts period 5
Who: It is Barack Obama What: He is smoking and saying he is giving it up. When:This happened in the 2008 campaign. Where: This happened in Washington. Why: This is important because some people may not want a president that smokes 
Dec 01, 2008
Some people don't want Obama to be president at all. This is important because 'some people may not want a president who smokes'? Are you serious? I didn't want a president who started wars for no reason and butchered the Bill of Rights and English language but I lived under one for eight years. If this is the one issue that bothers people, those people need lives. Badly.
Dec 01, 2008
"Why: This is important because some people may not want a president that smokes".
Well, then perhaps those folks shouldn't have voted for him. I wonder if this breaks down along political lines? Would more liberals have problems with a president (not necessarily this president) that smokes than conservatives? Additionally, this is, in my opinion, becoming a somewhat silly discussion. It's obvious to me (having been in this thread since nearly the beginning) that those of us who don't care, are not going to be able to convince those that do care that they shouldn't (and vice versa).
Dec 02, 2008
aren't the odds at dieing in a car accident greater than that from smoking or something silly like this. Surely its down to choice. Much of todays generation believe its wrong, yesteryears didn't and hence do...
Dec 02, 2008
@nigelwalsh according to a few sources, the lifetime odds of dying in a car accident are between 85-90:1, the odds on dying before the age of 75 due to smoking are about 12:1.
I would say though, no one officially dies from smoking, people die from diseases developed that can be caused by smoking, lung cancer, emphysema, etc... However, lung cancer can be developed by non-smokers as well, and much of your individual odds stem as much from genetic predisposition as they actually do to smoking. The issue at hand here isn't really whether or not smoking is good for you (it's pretty obviously not), but whether or not we as a society (and our government) have (or should have) the power to dictate what we can and can't do to our own bodies as well as whether or not our government leaders truly serve as role models (or at least if the President is a role model).
Dec 03, 2008
they did a good job in hiding it, I never knew he smoked.. I did know he did a 45 min workout every day and shoot some hoops when he can, how many of us can claim to do the same?
Maybe we should ask - do we expect our president to be absolutely perfect? Would we accept a president that was slightly overweight or obese?
Dec 03, 2008
@kara I would say that that is your opinion. There are millions of people who find something positive in smoking. There may not be positive health benefits to smoking, but if smoking was purely negative, why would anyone want to do it? Hell, nicotine tells your brain to release extra dopamine (pleasure chemical) into your body, that right there is positive.
@nigelwash unfortunately, I think that a lot of people do expect the president to be perfect, that's why people tend to take discussions like these so personally. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of government workers that smoke, but there's only one that turns it into a discussion of this magnitude. 
Kara,
Dec 03, 2008
@greghollingsworth As a role model for children, there is nothing positive to showcase with smoking. But of course, like most all things on this site...YES, that's my opinion.
Dec 03, 2008
Thankfully, I am not [puff puff] a role model [puff drag put it out light another one up] anyone's idea of a role model.
Dec 03, 2008
If we were really concerned about children's role models we would demand accountability out of our leaders on moral issues like war, lies, and crime. Or how about the shark-like sociopathic attitude that kicks in the minute money is invoked (after all, they are just "doing their job") that exonerates the moral activity of anyone so long as what they were doing was for profit? Oh, no, we can't attack those things, we can't point out that our society is more toxic to children than any of our chosen scapegoats. Cigarette smoking is a red herring, a scapegoat that everyone can point at so we can ignore the fact that just about every aspect of life is toxic and destructive. How convenient to attack a simple intoxicant and ignore the entire civilization. Or perhaps we could just get over our children-fetish and stop invoking "OMG won't someone think of the CHILDREN!?!?!" every time we see something we don't like.
Dec 03, 2008
@kara but is the President truly a role model for children? Yes, they may know who the president is, but who are children more likely to emulate?
My 8 year old is more likely to emulate Obi Wan Kinobi at this point than a president, and tweens are more likely to emulate the present teen sensation than a president. Teenagers are going to do whatever they damn well please as long as it's rebellious and college kids, well, they're old enough to make their own decisions. I guess from my point of view, I don't really see the president as a role model. To be honest, I don't want my 8 year old modeling himself after a president, I want my 8 year old to like legos and star wars and Harry Potter (who is more of a role model than Barack Obama for my kid). I certainly understand your position, but i'm more concerned with how he's going to handle Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistn, an economy in recession and a whole slew of other problems in this country than with whether or not he is able to slay a personal demon.
Dec 03, 2008
@The Puck I know what you wrote was not funny, in _that_ way, but it still made me laugh. I say to you: Amen.
Dec 03, 2008
@thepuck I agree that smoking is a scapegoat (although I don't think I would go so far as to call it a red herring). I think the problem is that we as a society demand accountability from everyone but ourselves. We hold Hollywood accountable, Washington accountable, the folks at the state capital accountable, but when are we accountable?
The government has become the teacher that the little kids run to to tattle on their friends. If something bad happens in America, it's always someone else's fault. This is a prime example. The man we just elected to the highest-stress job in the free-world deals with his stress in a manner that we find unacceptable, well it's his fault for smoking, not ours for electing him to that position. If you don't want your kids to think smoking is okay, tell them that it's not okay. We as a society need to stop relying on "role models" to raise our children and teach them wrong and right, that is our job as parents.
Dec 03, 2008
@homosuperior I am a mere fool, a caperer in a cap, the jester-philosopher of the interweb; to laugh at my words is the greatest compliment you can give them!
@greghollingsworth As a culture, we have rejected accountability as a notion. Whether it is the solution of religion ("Are you a bad person? Well, with the special Judeo-Christian package you can simultaneously justify your actions with Original Sin while avoiding all possible responsibility for them with the special 'Chosen Forgiven People' feature. Maintain your sense of superiority and entitlement while avoiding all accountability for your moral failures with religion...operators standing by!") or democracy itself ("Having a problem with responsibility for your actions as a leader? The democracy package allows for all the benefits of government with none of the accountability! Do what you want, and when the time comes for the bill or the blame, simply point to an intellectual abstraction called 'The People' (patent pending) which can never be held responsible for anything! Call now!"). This is our world, wonder of wonders.
Dec 03, 2008
@thepuck I don't know if the problem is that systemic, I think that as opposed to writing off accountability, we've simply shifted it to our leaders and blamed them when things don't go the way the majority of society thinks they should.
The notion of personal accountability has been overrun in this country by the sue-first ask questions later culture of our legal system. We are told from a very young age not to admit fault, which in turn degrades our own ability to accept fault. We shouldn't tell anyone it's our fault, so it must actually be someone else's fault. Personal accountability seems to be reserved only for public figures, and then only due to the possibility of widespread exposure (Michael Vick is a good recent example of this). If a teenage girl gets pregnant it's not her fault, or the fault of her parents it's societies fault for sexualizing girls at such an early age. When two disaffected teens kill a dozen people it's not their fault, it's Marilyn Manson's fault. Hell, some even went so far as to asign blame for Timothy McVeigh's actions to others, but when it comes down to it, Timothy McVeigh blew up that building, not some guy who wrote an atrocious book about a race war (he may be dispicable, not to mention a terrible author, but he didn't blow up any buildings). We as a society need to start accepting responsibility and taking accountability for our actions as a society, we are after all (at least for the time being) the ones who give our government permission to rule.
Dec 04, 2008
@greghollingsworth @thePuck I can't believe this is still going. This is why the two of you are going to get my vote for best commenter's. I think it's great actually(except for all the emails). Just because a story is a few days old, doesn't make any less relevant. @Scobleizer did a piece recently about the half life of a conversation. In it he makes the argument that comments on stories are getting much shorter as the amount of information thrown at us increases. Apparently, he finds this alarming. Perhaps he's just conversing in the wrong places (friendfeed). I'll look for the link to his story later. Greg if you could go into your replize and find the story with around 100 comments which took place over the course of a month, and either send it to me or post it here, I would appreciate it. Your probably asking yourself which one, there's a bunch like that. It was 3 or four weeks ago. Thanks
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler Yeah, I read @Scobleizer 's post on that. Perhaps it is true. I have a tendency to write a lot, and I love debate, so I get all sucked into these issues, but I might be more of the exception than the rule. And thanks for the vote!
Dec 04, 2008
@thePuck Don't change. Could use your help on this, you too Greg http://www.socialmedian.com/story/1860768/michaelfidler-socialmedians-new-news-flash-feature-is-very-hush-i-only-tweet-about-it-now-dont-explain-what-yet-hehe-sm
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler I remember the one you're talking about, but for the life of me can't remember what the subject was. @homosuperior was involved in that discussion as well, along with @thekookfringecom. It was a highly political discussion, I'll do my best to track it down.
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler it was a discussion on whether or not the description of Barack Obama as a Marxist was accurate, and yes, it was a long, and sometimes heated discussion. Here's the link: http://www.socialmedian.com/story/1424353/joe-biden-shuts-down-gop-talking-pointspewing-machine
Dec 04, 2008
It never ceases to amaze how few people know Obama smokes. Why? Because its negative and the media has already crowned him Lord Obama who can do no wrong. They won't report on it - or rather the reporting would be muted and underreported at best.
On the flip side if Bush, McCain or Palin were smokers, their pictures (shrouded in smoke) would be on the front page of the New York Times. Instead, the media provides cover for the messiah and we're treated to how Obama's a 'fitness fanatic' and a basketball player...
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom Oh come on, Fox would have a field day with an authentic picture of Obama sporting a cigarette. The reason it hasn't been reported on is because it's not that important and most likely because no one has actually been able to get a shot of him smoking.
If it was really important why haven't any conservative media outlets made a big deal about it?
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom nice to see you again, btw. I was surprised you hadn't popped up in this thread earlier.
Dec 04, 2008
If Obama wants to smoke than let him, the people of this country need to start taking personal responsibility again for their actions and behavior and stop demanding other people stop doing things because it influences kids and other people to copy them.
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom That's it. It's a huge conspiracy. You finally convinced me with your reasoned argument about Obama's smoking; it really was a huge media conspiracy and not the most political epic fail of history that lost McCain the election. You win. No, really.
Dec 04, 2008
@thePuck @greghollingsworth I wasn't implying in the least that that was why McCain lost - he ran a crap campaign. I'm talking specifically about the language that's used regularly in the media about Obama vs. Bush for example to describe Bush's workouts - he's deemed "freakishly" attentive to his physical well being - but Obama is deemed "fit" yet he's a known smoker. Compare, for example, the op/ed in the New York Times about Cindy McCain (and her 20+ year old drug problem) - the writer basically eviserating her, and leaving out the story of how she adopted her daughter (from Bangladesh?) and compare that to say for example the People Magazine showing a glowing Michelle Obama and the headline of "Why he loves her..." and lastly, compare that to the cover of US Magazine with a scowling Sarah Palin on the cover and the headline "Babies, Lies and Scandal." My point in all of this isn't so much that reporters can't say what they want about whoever in politics, because as we know all is fair, all I'm saying is that I wish the media wouldn't paint Democrats with a benevolent paint brush and hit conservatives with an evil stick. Conservatives do not get a fair shake in the media... My beef is always about the reporting, I could care less where you stand, just be honest about it...
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom I don't know; I grew up in the South, where the stranglehold on the media was pretty absolute (my hometown even scrambled MTV like a pay station). The actual behaviors of the so-called conservatives hit them with the "evil stick" without any help from the media. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you want the media to portray conservatives the way you wish they would be or think they should be and not how they are? It's pretty hard to paint a pretty face on bigotry, religious fanaticism and cultivated ignorance, warmongering, profiteering, croneyism, torture, etc. I don't think I can think of a possible "spin" from the media that would change the actions and words of the GOP into ones I could respect or even recognize as the political theory of conservatism.
Dec 04, 2008
@mott Not sure I'm following - FOX News didn't help McCain win the election, but it also wasn't tearing Obama to shreds - did you see Obama's interview on O'Reilly? Thought it was pretty fair...
BTW, Hannity, O'Reilly et al, aren't the NEWS portion of Fox... Those are shows like Hardball or Glen Beck on CNN...
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom First off, comparing US Weekly to People is an insult to People (if that can be imagined), I'm sure that People would not have run that cover. US Weekly is a complete and utter rag, People (though raggish is a respected magazine).
Second, there is a significant difference between smoking and being addicted to oxycontin (or whatever her painkiller of choice was). Third, this thread had nothing to do with the media until you brought it up, Fourth, Do you really think that the majority of people that watch Fox, MSNBC or CNN don't take what Hannity, O'Reilly, Olbermann, Matthews, Cavuto, et al as news? That's part of the problem with the 24 hour news networks, they're no longer in the business of news, they're info-tainment. O'Reilly, Hannity, Olbermann and Matthews are opinion shows that masquerade as news shows. Lastly, I only know Barack Obama is a smoker because he told people he was trying to quit. He didn't have to do that, sure, people who knew he was a smoker might have let something slip, but he could have tried to hide it and he didn't. That he may have failed is not surprising, most smokers try 6-7 times before actually kicking the habit.
Dec 04, 2008
Not to mention that Cindy McCain's addiction led to a doctor surrendering his license, the complete dissolution of a non-profit medical agency and a DEA investigation. Obama's smoking has caused none of these things, regardless of how many kids the McCain's have adopted from third-world countries.
Dec 04, 2008
@thePuck You're delving into issues, I'm talking about the reporting of those issues specifically. The reporting is such that we're supposed to believe that conservatives are just as you said; filled with bigotry, religious fanaticism and cultivated ignorance, warmongering, profiteering, croneyism, torture, etc. - and I would argue that fanaticism exists on both sides, but the media only reports the "evils" of Republicans... Let's take religious fanaticism specifically. The Gay Marriage crowd has singled out the Mormon Church (religious fanatics) as its whipping boy as to why the gay marriage amendment wasn't passed in California. Yet, the gay marriage crowd hasn't said boo about the black community which voted 70% against gay marriage in California. Evangelicals actually voted for gay marriage (37% for) in larger numbers than blacks (30% For) - yet the "religious fanatics" in the Mormon church have been singled out as the cause of the propositions defeat... I'd say that's more than a bit unfair... Speaking of the other issues, what is the problem with "profiteering?" We live in a capitalistic society, and unless you don't have a job or work for a non-profit you're working for someone who's making (or trying to make) money a.k.a. PROFITS. As for the other issues, you're grandstanding and stereotyping... If similar things were said about liberals you'd label the reporters, talk-show hosts etc as bigots...
Dec 04, 2008
@greghollingsworth Fair enough and you're spot on about a 24 hour news cycle. I brought up media bias because its my pet issue - I rail about it on my blog, so I'm of the opinion that its the media that hasn't gone on and on about Obama's smoking - by the way, if he wants to smoke, let him smoke - but don't bury the story because he's a democrat. It seems that the likes of the New York Times have taken it upon itself to be the liberal off-set of the likes of Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck, etc... I'm also specifically NOT saying that what was written about Cindy McCain shouldn't have been written - but it was pretty cutting and personal and I don't see the op/ed board of the NYTimes writing a similar cutting story about Obama's associations, I see the Times defending Obama, not criticizing him...
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom True, but again you're talking about biased news coverage by citing the NYT Op/Ed board, which is not news. Now, I am not saying that the NYT isn't a liberal new source, it most certainly is, I'm not debating that. Yes, the NYT op/ed board is definitely a liberal stronghold, and will continue to be so, but those are people paid for their opinions, not their journalistic abilities, they're also not put on the front page as news, they're in the editorial/opinion section, where they belong.
Yes, the MSM is predominantly liberal, but it always has been and probably always will be, it has not prevented Conservatives from maintaining their standing in this country in the past, nor will it in the future. The conservative movement is endangered more by it's current crisis of identity than anything else.
Dec 04, 2008
@greghollingsworth Are you having fun, Why am I not surprised that @thekookfringecom doesn't see eye to eye with you on this subject! Sorry to interrupt, please continue!
BTW 9 comments away from a hundred. This lame topic could set a record. The other post says 199, but I think you broke the counter!
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler i don't know if we'll make it, @thekookfringecom and I have already had this discussion, in fact, I believe it was on the last 100+ comment thread we were in, different topic, same eople involved (obama + marxism as opposed to obama+smoking). Both have devolved into discussions of the media, we may have run this topic as long as it can go.
Dec 04, 2008
@greghollingsworth There. Now we're at 100 :-) Often times the NYT OP/ED Board consists of their reporters - at least we agree with the idea that the MSM at large is indeed liberal. The only other point I'd make is that because we have devolved (evolved? either is debatable) into a 24 hours news cycle, people do look to O'Reilly, Hannity, etc for their news. And to counteract that, the likes of the NYTimes and the Washington Post for example have decided to become print-o-tainment to counteract the obvious power of people like O'Reilly etc... So legitimate news organizations are mimicking biased info-tainment talk shows instead of unbiasedly reporting the news as their supposed to... Is it all for profiteering?!? haha.
Mott,
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom, I was referring to your comment about the news being honest and Conservatives not getting a fair shake. And as @greghollingsworth stated Fox would have a field day with Obama smoking, but I'm not about to pat them on the back... they have a long way to go to make up for the last 8 years of their "fair and balanced" reporting!
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom You may be right (to be honest, I stopped reading print news long ago) about the NYT. The core issue here though is not one of bias, it is of a corruption of our news media (whether or not the corruption comes from the left or the right is another argument). News as entertainment (or vice versa) is the true issue here, and this regression has led to the degradation of journalistic integrity (at least in my opinion), or at least in the editorial rooms of newspapers, tv networks etc...
News should be the reporting of fact, not opinion, and regardless of the outlet, too much opinion is leaking into my facts.
Dec 04, 2008
@thekookfringecom You misunderstand my point...I am saying that the actual behavior of conservative give me these impressions, not the reporting of them (I don't engage with mainstream media, for the most part). My belief that they are as I have portrayed them comes from living among them, seeing their methods and thought patterns, and finding them barbaric, outmoded, and based upon ridiculous beliefs. The GOP shit in its own messkit when it decided to cultivate the redneck vote and push a "faith-based", anti-intellectual agenda. And as for the "profiteering" comment: 1) Capitalism is not an ideology, it is an economic theory. As such, I have no opinion on its ideological value and think that people who pretend that it is some sort of religion or ethical precept are either dupes or those who would exploit dupes. 2) Capitalism and communism were theories which have simply been proven wrong; they cannot be applied functionally. Capitalism refuses to acknowledge social goods, encourages the ethics of a shark and sociopath, and relies on an "invisible hand" that (like other mythical characters) will make everything fair and just someday, so long as we have faith (and don't ask when). Communism refuses to acknowledge difference and individual excellence, encourages herd thinking and totalitarianism, and also depends on a mythical agenda that history is supposed to have that makes its utopia "inevitable", again as long we just have faith and don't ask when. Both of these systems are as obsolete and creations of the era of their origins as feudalism. Perhaps an economic system based on evidence and data rather than ideologies and quasi-Christian apocalyptic thinking would be better. 3) The government is not supposed to be trying to make a profit, and our leaders are not supposed to using their power to help their own financial interests...that is why the GOP being revealed war profiteers with financial interests in the laws then enact and wars they declare makes them unethical. To want to make money is not unethical, but to use political power to do so is.
Dec 04, 2008
@greghollingsworth @thekookfringecom you stated that Obama is being treated like a messiah from by the media, well chomp on these while I grab you media links. Is video OK or would you prefer a "liberal" paper? Here's some pictures http://images.google.com/images?q=obama+smoking&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler He's not the messiah, he's Superman!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vws9fTtQgz4 Seriously, though, what I am worried about is that we have been duped yet again and he is really Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen and that Bush was Beast Rabban. (let the Dune nerds get the reference, others should read Dune!)
Dec 04, 2008
@greghollingsworth @thekookfringecom @ThePuck Here's An AbC reporter attempting to find out if Obama is still smoking. I don't think he intends on turning a blind eye on Obama's smoking http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/obama-is-smokin.html
Here's a very conservative blog, cutting him a bit of slack, yet having a laugh at Obama's expense,http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2008/11/liberal_press_smoking_is_okay.php There are 12,100,000 entries in Google regarding Obama's Smoking. I don't think that he has been given a break by the media. If anything he has been harassed by the media, and mostly theliberal meeting. I went through a lot of pages lookin for a story from Fox, but i couldn't find one.
Mott,
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler @greghollingsworth @thekookfringecom
Fox footage, the smoking bit is in the middle of the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouKJixL--ms Here is the picture from Fox on the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/2007/03/obamas_smoking_bomb.html
Dec 04, 2008
@greghollingsworth
@thekookfringecom @ThePuck Congratulations 100 comments about Obama smoking. I started it, with a simple comment, " I didn't know Obama was a smoker." like I really gave a shit. I didn't care then and I don't care now. To be fair I am also including @thekookfringecom , and @homosuperior in my best commenter's list. Even if I don't agree with them, I respect them for tenaciously defending their positions! Perhaps, one day you will all be on the same side of an issue. What a scary thought! I'm curious, Did you guys like the movie "The Great Debaters"? I did!
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler Never saw that. My love of debate comes from me education. My degrees were in philosophy and I was going into academia when I realized I would much rather do what I do than teach freshman about the Cave while trying to secure tenure. Besides, I am a far better clown than teacher, and I would assert that a fool is still a philosopher...of a kind :p
Dec 04, 2008
@thePuck Nice clip. Have you ever seen the documentary OUTFOXED: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism --Here's the trailer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w39FnpuMRfo&eurl=http://www.outfoxed.org/ It's a must see!
Dec 04, 2008
Haven't seen the Great Debaters, have seen Outfoxed (it's pretty good, although very one-sided).
Educationally speaking, I have degrees in History and Political Science, which naturally led me to a career in marketing. I've always loved to argue, if for no other reason than to put all the trivial knowledge I have stuck in my head to good use.
Dec 04, 2008
@michaelfidler I'll check that out, thanks!
@greghollingsworth ROFL exactly, I ended up copywriting and doing SEO, though actually all that training in logic and implicit semantic definition actually helps with SEO work...sort of. :p
Dec 05, 2008
@michaelfidler Haven't seen it either (The Great Debaters.) The beauty of America really comes through in these blogs - as nuts as we may think the others opinions are (and I recognize that my views are in the minority on this particular blog - my brother is friends with Jason Goldberg which is how I ended up here in the first place) freedom of speech applies to everyone in America - no matter how vitriolic and caustic we may think the others opinion is, we must recognize that those opinions exist and not promote silencing them. Its the ultimate form of tolerance. On that note (Michael Fidler), I appreciate the fact that you don't agree with my opinions but recognize that they should be heard... By the way my background is the following; Business Degree from a 3rd quartile school in the Southwest, lived in 6 cities in the US, have spent 3 years living in Latin America (Mexico), 1 Year in Europe (London, Brussels) - run a quasi blog www.TheKookFringe.com - small business owner, love politics, love debate and love to walk away from debates, no matter how heated and still be friends with my opponents. I try not to be shrill, but I AM a partisan - slightly right of Atilla the Hun, but prefer to think of myself in the mold of Ronald Reagan. I really try to understand the other side, which is why I engage in blogs like this, because I know almost no one is going to agree with me... Sort of feel like Hannity in the land of Colmes...
Dec 05, 2008
@thePuck I would suggest that you're stereotyping and are basing your opinions on anecdotal evidence from a limited scope. I resent the idea that because I'm a GOP member that I'm a redneck. What you're suggesting is that the GOP is cultivating ignorance on a national level, that would be tantamount to me saying that Democrats are "cultivating the welfare vote." Both would be horrific stereotypes. Both exist, but are hardly the majority in either party. Yet you suggest the stereotypes you brought up about conservatives apply to the majority. I find it stunning how liberals tell conservatives all day not to stereotype, yet liberals have no problem stereotyping conservatives... Ironic, don't you think? So in reality, I didn't misunderstand you at all, I understood you perfectly and I would say to you that if I stereotyped gays, blacks, etc the same way you just labeled conservatives, you'd be calling me a bigot, a religious fanatic, pro ignorance cultivation, a warmonger, a profiteer, a croney, pro-torture, etc... Oh wait, you just did in a previous post :-)
Dec 05, 2008
@thekookfringecom Oh, I'm not a liberal, and I certainly don't tell anyone not to stereotype or judge others....quite the opposite. Stereotypes are usually true, that's how they become stereotypes (in fields where there is no rhetorical agenda to push we call "stereotyping" induction, and it is the basis of our scientific endeavors). Induction has the problem of not always being true, and the problem of induction was well-documented by Hume, but it just keeps being effective.
You know the problem with considering yourself part of a group (like the GOP or the Dems)? You get all butt-hurt about the ways you are "not like the typical" exemplar of that groups. I just don't care that maybe 3 out of 10 people who identify as conservatives aren't as the stereotype makes them out to be, because the odds are damn good that the conservatives that count, that make policy and decide the votes, will be exactly as their stereotype says they will be. That's what counts for results, and results are what I care about, not some BS politically correct "OMG don't judge people, bias!" crap. The fact is that generally people who identify as conservative are: 1. Religiously motivated in their voting. 2. Anti-abortion 3. Pro-capitalism 4. Pro-war 5. Anti-gay rights and the corresponding liberal will be: 1. Secularly motivated in their voting 2. Anti-capitalism 3. Anti-war 4. Pro-gay rights 5. Pro-choice This breakdown is statistically true, is consistently reflected in votes on both sides of the aisle, and is consistent with my experiences. I don't like bigotry, I don't think religion has any place in government, I think war is about as intelligent a way of dealing with the modern world as diagnosing illness using the "humours" theory, and I don't think the government has any business telling women what to do with their unborn feti (or much of anything else besides "Here is the post office, here are the roads, have fun, kids!"). If you don't like how your party's stereotype is perceived, then hold your party accountable. They chose certain tactics, and pretty much since Reagan those tactics have been those of war-mongering, croneyism, cultivated ignorance, and religious rhetoric. Or even better, you could recognize that the basic premises of both parties apply to a world that no longer exists (if it ever did) and that to keep beating either the "conservative" or "liberal" drum is to continue arguing about lumineferous ether when we should be talking about quantum mechanics; not only is the debate obsolete, the objects of interest never existed in the first place. Oh, and to the mildly snarky butt-hurt "you called me names" bit: I enjoyed it. The great part about not believing in "good guys" is not having to try to find some way to translate "my side" into "the good side". There are no good guys and bad guys, this isn't a comic book. There are my guys and your guys (and gals, but the whole "good guy" thing has such good connotation), so cry foul because I violated some principle of non-judgment and non-stereotyping that I am supposed to think is holy because of my supposed party affiliations. It's funny. Not a liberal, don't care about seeming "judgmental" or "biased" or whatever other philosophical shackle the hippies have inflicted upon themselves this week. But please, engage in your rhetorical games. They make me laugh, and, like all fools, I love to laugh.
Dec 05, 2008
Who-Barack Obama smokes.
What-Barack Obama fibbed about giving up smoking. When-They wrote about it on Nov. 20. where- Wherever Obama is. Why-Because he made another poor decision.
Dec 05, 2008
@nathanlarge What are the other bad decisions you refer to? Take your time, we have all day!
Dec 05, 2008
@michaelfidler @nathanlarge why not, we've already gone over 100 comments, maybe we can hit 200.
Dec 07, 2008
Melanie
Who: Obama What: he smokes When: when he wants Where: any were he wants
Dec 07, 2008
Melanie
Who: Obama What: he smokes When: when he wants Where: any were he wants Add something
Stats
Mood
50 Clips
Share this story
Belongs to News Networks
Stories in 24 hours: 221
Stories in 24 hours: 750
Stories in 24 hours: 101
Stories in 24 hours: 188
Stories in 24 hours: 812
|
|
|
|
|
